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Judy Woodruff:
President Trump's former campaign chairman
is
in legal hot water again.
In a court filing late Monday,
prosecutors for special counsel Robert Mueller
accused
Paul Manafort
of lying to them
and to the FBI
on a variety of subject matters.
Manafort
said
in that same filing
that he has provided
truthful information.
He
was previously convicted
on a number of criminal charges
brought by Mueller.
And, in September,
he
pleaded
guilty
to other crimes.
In doing so,
Manafort also
agreed to cooperate
with the special counsel's team.
Here now
to help us digest
this newest accusation
is Renato Mariotti.
He
worked previously
as a federal prosecutor
focusing on white-collar crimes.
He
is now a defense attorney
in private practice.
Renato Mariotti,
welcome back
to the "NewsHour."
So, tell us,
how unusual
is this
for a special counsel
in a situation
like this
to have worked out
a plea deal,
but then to turn around and say,
the defendant,
the person
we're working with,
has lied,
and we
think
the plea deal
is worthless
now?
Renato Mariotti:
It
is extremely unusual, Judy.
In my almost decade
as a former federal prosecutor,
when I was
in that job,
I
had never gone
to the step
of having a cooperation deal
fall apart
and having to go to the judge
and make a statement
like this.
And I will tell
you,
I
worked
in a very large office
in Chicago
with well over 100 other prosecutors.
And I
don't recall
that ever happening
during the almost decade
that I was doing it.
So it's
very, very unusual situation,
because, typically, coordinators
want to be
on the government's team.
That's
why they sign
the deal.
There are
huge incentives
for them
to be truthful,
to tell the government everything
that they know.
That is
what they are instructed
by the prosecutors
and by the FBI agents.
And, on the other side,
the prosecutors
are trying to work
with the cooperator.
They want
their testimony.
They want
their information.
So, typically,
there is
not this sort of falling apart
to this level.
It's
something
that is really hard
to get your head around.
Judy Woodruff:
So, as we said,
Paul Manafort
is saying
what he has said
was truthful.
We have
got two completely opposite versions
of what happened here.
But,
in doing so,
if what Robert Mueller is saying
is correct,
what Paul Manafort has done
is open himself up
to a longer prison sentence.
Renato Mariotti:
That's
exactly right, Judy.
And the judge
will ultimately make
that decision.
So Paul Manafort
can have
whatever position
he wants.
Ultimately,
Bob Mueller's
going to present
evidence and reasons and an explanation
to the judge.
And it
will be up
to the judge
to decide,
not beyond a reasonable doubt,
but by essentially
a 51 percent standard,
as to whether or not
Paul Manafort did
these things.
And if she believes
that he did,
in fact,
lie to the FBI,
she must,
under law,
consider
all of his behavior,
including that,
when she fashions
his sentence.
And you
better believe
that if the judge decides
that he did lie
to the FBI
and he lied
to Mr. Mueller and his team,
she
is going to give
him
a much higher sentence.
It
is not going
to go very well
for him.
Judy Woodruff:
So, it appears
that whatever the exchanges were
that the special counsel believes
is not truthful,
not factual,
that's going
to come out later
in the statement
they issued
last night.
They said
that they were going
to put forward
the details of the defendant's crimes.
So does
that tell us anything,
that Robert Mueller
is prepared
to lay out exactly
what Manafort did?
Renato Mariotti:
Well, it certainly means,
Judy,
first of all,
he
is asking
the judge
to consider
this
at sentencing.
This means
that he wants
the judge
to take this into account.
As I mentioned
a moment ago,
that's
the judge's duty to do.
And what it also tells us
is at least some portions of this,
so there's
enough there
that he feels
it's not
too sensitive to disclose.
In other words,
if Paul Manafort was lying
about very sensitive classified matters,
you can imagine
that being something
that was all done
under seal.
But here,
at least
I think
we can expect
some portions of this
will ultimately play themselves out
in the sentencing process,
and we will hear
at least about some or a good portion
of what Mr. Mueller is alleging
Manafort did.
Judy Woodruff:
Of course,
there's so much
we don't know.
We know
Robert Mueller is looking
at any possible connection
between the Trump presidential campaign,
Russian officials.
We do know
that this filing
by the special counsel
comes out
three days,
just a matter of a few days
after President Trump answered
questions
that Robert Mueller's office
had put to him.
And we have a statement today
from the president's lawyer,
Rudy Giuliani, telling reporters
that maybe the prosecutor
in his zeal
to get the president
may have gone
too far.
Renato Mariotti:
I see
no evidence to indicate
that that is the case.
And what we have seen,
frankly,
in the process of the interview process
that you refer, to Judy,
is extraordinary deference
being shown to the president.
I will tell you,
when I represent clients,
the government doesn't let me clients represent —
you know,
make their answers in writing.
The process
usually doesn't take
a year long.
So I think
they have been deferential. [경의를 표하는]
As to Mr. Manafort,
the facts are going
to play out
through the process
we just discussed
a moment ago.
If Mr. Mueller is able to prove
that Mr. Manafort lied to the FBI,
that is going to be very bad news
for Mr. Manafort,
and I don't think
anyone could say
that he was treated
unfairly in that circumstance.
Judy Woodruff:
Just quickly,
I want to also say
there was a report
in the British newspaper The Guardian today
that Paul Manafort met
with the founder of WikiLeaks, Julian Assange,
on three different occasions,
including in the spring of 2016,
just exactly around the time
he went to work
for the Trump campaign.
Now,
Manafort is denying this,
but, if it were true,
it seems to me
that could have
a lot of significance
here.
Renato Mariotti:
There's
no question.
I mean,
WikiLeaks was the operation
that distributed
the hacked e-mails
from Democrats in the United States.
Hacking a server
in the United States
is a federal crime.
Anyone who participated in
that would — a conspiracy
to do that or aided
that would be guilty of a crime.
Obviously, knowing about that
or having discussions about
that doesn't necessarily constitute
a crime,
but it would certainly lead — potentially
could lead Mueller down
that direction.
Judy Woodruff:
All right, Renato Mariotti,
thank you very much.
Renato Mariotti:
Thank you.
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